Jun 21
Warhammer dilemmas!
Alas, the title says it all. I am having Warhammer dilemmas. The Bretonnians have been my army of choice although, admittedly, I haven’t gotten much painting done. I have two completed knights and one that I had been working on but never finished (was trying out NMM and totally could not get the hang of it, so I scrapped it with a completed horse and a pair of legs ^^;;) and am currently underway on a third (fourth..?) model that will feature a blue / white quartered shield and a gold (yellow) crescent moon as the charge.
My actual dilemma, however, is that I’ve sort of fallen in love with Vampire Counts. We snagged the new book recently since Dan has had his eye on Vampire Counts for a while and I made the mistake of flipping through the book (I say that as if I haven’t read all of the Warhammer books that we have QQ) and I just fell in love. The lore for Vlad and Isabella, particularly, caught my eye and led me to want to proxy a battle or two and now I’m just hooked.. but I don’t want to abandon my Bretonnians and start a new project. If I keep going at this rate (paint a few lizzies, swap and paint a few horses, swap and paint some skellies) I’ll just end up with.. no painted armies.
So.. once and for all, WHAT SHOULD I PLAY? That’s not to say I won’t collect and paint a new army after I actually finish one, but which one should I finish first?
Blogging - the bored, Warhammer playing housewife way!
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Firstly, with undead hordes are ludicrously expensive to collect (which isn’t stopping me from looking at Tomb Kings, other than them not getting a revamp until $deity knows when). Then again, after playing Warhammer for this long, I have a really hard time getting excited about different armies (other than Tomb Kings and Chaos Dwarves, should they ever return).
Other than that, I suppose the choice is up to you. Vampire Counts certainly have a lot more tactical flexibility (assuming you don’t take Men-at-Arms, which you never do), and they’re arguably more fun to play (plus they can’t be shut down like knights can). I don’t know if I’d use the Vlad/Isabella combo against anything that can hunt characters (i.e. not Dwarves), if only because Isabella’s comparatively weak and I’d hit her with an assassin pretty quick then just bait Vlad around the field the entire game so he’d fail charges and not be able to cast/enter combat.
That being said it is, of course, whatever you feel like playing. Were it me, I’d go VCs just for the lore and whatnot. Plus, the Coach has always been fun.
I’m not really fond of the coach, tbh..
Anyway, my current list doesn’t have Vlad and Isabella in it — I just like the lore for them quite a bit. I understand about the frenzy baiting, but keep in mind that you can do the same thing to Blood Knights and I manage to get them into combat by screening them from being able to charge. Not to mention your baiting would stop working when I actually caught you with Vanhel’s or a different unit. Also note that baiting him around the field doesn’t stop him from casting at all ^_^
Anyway, the list I’m currently running is:
Vampire Lord w/ Sword of Unholy Power, Scepter de Noirot, Crown of the Damned, Master of the Black Arts, Dark Acolyte, Avatar of Death w/ shield
Vampire w/ BSB, The Flayed Hauberk, Lord of the Dead, Dark Acolyte
Vampire w/ Dark Acolyte, Avatar of Death w/ shield
Vampire w/ Dark Acolyte, Avatar of Death w/ shield, Book of Arkhan
14x Skeleton warriors w/ full command
14x Skeleton warriors w/ full command
14x Skeleton warriors w/ full command
16x Crypt Ghouls w/ Ghast
19x Grave Guard w/ full command and Banner of the Barrows
5x Dire Wolves
5x Dire Wolves
5x Blood Knights w/ full command and Banner of the Dead Legion
This gives me 14 power dice with a chance to generate 4 more. I even manage to get spells off on Dan’s dwarfs ^_^
The Dire Wolves with the knights get shot to shit but they screen my Blood Knights long enough to get to where I want them to start charging and the other unit of Dire Wolves gets shot to shit so it doesn’t rip up archers. The list has been working pretty well so far. I’ve toyed with tossing in some bats but the few times I’ve used them they managed to get DEFEATED by Dan’s bolt-thrower crew. It was sad.
The point of baiting is, really, to get the unit out of position to flank charge/redirect it (or keep it mostly out of combat for the typical 6 turn game). Sure, he can still cast, just not particularly effectively (and you’d have a hard time catching fast cav with one Vanhel’s on the unit per turn).
Given that the coach only eats your dice on a six, and it can be a flying, terror causing, ethereal chariot with impact hits (and led by a cairn wraith), I have a hard time seeing what’s not to like. Yes, a hit from a stone thrower or cannon blows it away, but hey. No Varghulf or Spirit Hosts? No cairn wraiths with a banshee (yes, the high leadership on dwarves makes it iffy, but more things causing terror can never be bad).
I guess I’m also confused about the 14 skeletons (I’m assuming Vampires go with these, with the lord in the Grave Guard), and the presence of six core choices. While the special choices for Vampire Counts aren’t all that great, there are always other things you could throw different stuff and just raise more units/boost the size of your units.
Yes, plain ol’ dwarves are lots of fun. I’m not sure how they managed to lose to bolt thrower crew, but meh. The best war machine hunter you’ve got is the Varghulf, and if it were me, I’d certainly try to squeeze it in just for that purpose.
Varghulf’s suck. Why would I ever spend the points on it when I could sink those points toward Blood Knights or something? All he’s going to do is get shot to shit and never make it to combat. Maybe in a larger list where I have lots of things that are going to get shot to shit.. but right now, I’m perfectly happy to let Dan sink his fire on 80ish points of dire wolves. Yep, that works just fine for me ^_^
As to your making Vlad chase you around.. you are forgetting a lot of things here. First off, you can Vanhel’s the same unit as many times in the same magic phase as you want. I have lots of power dice. I will catch you. If, somehow, I can’t catch you — I will raise a unit of zombies behind your ass and *they* will catch you.
As for the Black Coach — it’s really the same thing as the Varghulf. It will die. It could be almost the ENTIRE game before it actually manages to become ethereal and flying. Firstly, yes.. it only absorbs power dice on a roll of a 6 (and only within 6″ so even if Dan could cast, it really ain’t eating anyone’s dice but my own). Only WHEN it eats a power die does it actually manage to gain any kind of abilities at all. So.. if I were extremely lucky, by my third magic phase it MIGHT be ethereal, flying, and gain killing blow or something. By then, the rest of my army is going to be in combat. Whoop-de-shit. 200 points that I could have spent on something that would actually help me out in combat ^_^ If I am unlucky, it will eat all of my power dice on the first turn and become a bloated magic machine of death while I can’t cast any other magic QQ In any case, I’m not willing to give up my power dice to kinda possibly maybe get a nifty unit.
You can’t boost the size of Skeleton units without taking a special power that allows you to do so. I can’t really fit it on my regular vampires if I want to give them saves *and* have power dice. At 2250 points, three full ranks is about what I need to keep Dan from just stomping me on outnumbering and ranks and the like. I HAVE to have a decent amount of core because I take shitloads of damage.. I have to be able to soak it so that my Vampire doesn’t get slain with CR and can fill his unit back up.
The dire wolves are cheap as shit and they keep my Blood Knights safe. They’re basically a necessity. Seriously, I have no problem throwing away 80pts so that my Blood Knights can get into combat unharmed and start tearing things apart.
Cairn Wraiths aren’t worth taking unless your Vampire Lord takes the Cursed Book and doesn’t enter combat.. which basically means leaving him floating all out on his own without being in a unit. Also, the Banshee’s ability is not really very useful against Dwarfs. Even if I rolled a 12, she’d still only do 5 wounds on Dwarfs. With the average roll being a 7, on average she will inflict.. NO wounds on Dwarfs.
And as to more things causing Terror.. units only ever take ONE terror test the whole game. ONE. One Terror causing creature is just as good as five.. The only difference is that if you fail your save when you’re being charged by something that causes Terror, you always have to flee instead of standing and hitting on 6s (if you outnumber) but I try to outnumber as much as I can anyway. It’s just not worth wasting points on terror for one small bonus to charging.
As to the Crypt Ghouls in my army.. I admit that they aren’t a necessary unit to have, however.. I LIKE core. For the most part, I think that core is core for a reason. Some armies can get away with ignoring their core choices, but I really don’t feel that Vampire Counts are one of them. The T4 on the Ghouls is a nice little addition to the army and if they get into combat (and they run near my lord so he can always heal them up along the way) they’re actually pretty decent at inflicting some damage on dwarfs due to their poison attacks. Skeletons, quite honestly, don’t do much in the way of damage. But even their pitiful saves help protect my vampires, which is the whole point of the endeavor. If my vampires stay unharmed, I can just swarm someone under.
Even if a Varghulf gets shot to shit (and it probably would), at T5 4W, it stands a decent chance of actually making it there. The Varghulf, unlike Fell Bats, wouldn’t have a problem beating war machine crews, nor (likely) quarrelers. Why spend the points rather than sinking them on blood knights or something? It’s another model he has to worry about, and shot at.
The rules description for Vanhel’s is quite clear when it says that you can only move each unit once per magic phase. Even if you did raise zombies, so what? Vlad’s still out of position, and I still get a charge reaction when you Vanhel’s them towards me (well, given that they’d be fleeing, they’d just run further). Sure, you might catch me, but you might not (and you’ve wasted more dice in any case). It’d be interesting to see you raise a unit behind me unless I were somehow fleeing parallel to your lines, particularly given that I’ll probably be more than 12″ away in the first place.
The Black Coach, like the Varghulf, might die (its chances of survival are lower than a Varghulf, sure), but it might not. I’m familiar with the rules for absorbing power dice, thanks. Let’s say it’s within six inches of your vampire lord. On average, each turn, you lose one power die (not including the Sword of Unholy Power), and it gains oen ability. Admittedly, the MR is useless against dwarves, and the Hate probably isn’t that useful, but you’ve got at worst a 50/50 shot (assuming you don’t want extra impact hits either) of it getting something useful every turn.
The power that lets you raise more skeletons is 15pts. Saves are nice, but I’ve always been partial to fighty vampires (your lord would still have a ward save anyway). I’ve played Vampire Counts (6th, yes, but the basics of combat resolution vs. undead aren’t really different). You need lots of unit strength, yes.
The Cursed Book helps Cairn Wraiths how…? For 50pts each, ethereal terror causing skirmishers with S5 and 3W doesn’t sound like a bad deal. I mentioned, yes, that the Banshee isn’t all that effective against dwarves (unless you’re stacking it with the Lahmian power, but that only makes it marginally effective). Banshees are not necessary in a unit of cairn wraiths, though.
I don’t see how one terror causing unit is as good as five. Again, dwarves have ridiculously high leadership (though spreading terror causing units through the line so he has to take tests sooner isn’t bad), but multiple terror causing models are extremely useful against suck leadership armies (humans, skaven, orcs & gobbos). Regardless, the reason to take those units is not that they cause terror, just that the terror is an added benefit. That they only take one terror test per game (and it’s been that way for as long as Dan and I have been playing) doesn’t particularly matter.
Vampire Counts, no, are not an army that can get away with ignoring core (any more than Dark Elves, Dwarves, Chaos, Lizardmen, etc). What I’m saying, though, is that you’re rejecting half of the viable choices (I wouldn’t take Black Knights, Corpse Carts, Bat Swarms, etc either) in your list out of hand. Yes, Spectral Hosts gradually die to static CR from bog-standard dwarf warriors, but Cairn Wraiths do not suffer from that problem, and he’s pretty much forced to hit them with war machines (assuming they’re runed, which they probably are) to do any damage as long as you avoid characters, and that’s more shooting which is not hitting your Blood Knights or their screen. If I had the option of taking, say, Cairn Wraiths, I certainly would.
There’s more than one way to skin a cat, to so speak, and you may actually find it (gasp!) fun to use some of these choices, if you give ‘em a chance to prove that they’re more effective than they look on paper.
So keep fleeing away. If I manage to get my zombies behind you (and you have to be within 8 inches of me, or my frenzied Vlad is NOT forced to try to charge you as he wouldn’t be able to reach), they will charge and you will flee, as per the rules, directly away from them and into Vlad which means that your unit is destroyed.
If I can’t get 12″ behind you, if I’m still in charge range I can definitely get 12″ on either side of you and charge you.. which puts you out of Vlad’s charge arc.
Even if you manage to pull Vlad away and prevent him from charging you, at some point you are going to run into a forest, or your own units, etc, etc, etc. Anyway, this is all moot since I don’t actually take Vlad and/or Isabella.. I just love their lore!
Varghulf and Black Coach can both be ONE shotted by dwarf shooting. I guess you can look at it as one more thing to draw Dan’s fire, but my dire wolves already draw his fire. Why do I want to spend MORE points drawing fire? And as to the Varghulf hunting war machine crews — it doesn’t honestly work. The way Dan positions his war machines, you can’t get at them UNLESS you are flying — the Varghulf base would clip units instead. He likes to stack everything up all right in a row x.x
I don’t have personal experience with Cairn Wraiths, I am going off of what the Dakkaites say in that with WS3, they just aren’t worth what they cost. I’m not saying that I would never take them, but I don’t have 125pts to drop from my list. In a larger game, I would definitely consider adding them in.
Even if a Varghulf gets shot to shit (and it probably would), at T5 4W, it stands a decent chance of actually making it there. The Varghulf, unlike Fell Bats, wouldn’t have a problem beating war machine crews, nor (likely) quarrelers. Why spend the points rather than sinking them on blood knights or something? It’s another model he has to worry about, and shot at.
Simple comment about the Varghulf — one Bolt Thrower with a Rune of Penetrating kills it in two turns assuming average rolling. I take two Bolt Throwers. That selfsame Bolt Thrower also kills a Black Coach in a single shot. I won’t even get into cannons, because I don’t use them, but a unit with multiple models offers a kind of durability that Varghulfs/Black Coaches can’t offer. If I kill a few Blood Knights, Invocation of Nehek brings them back. If I take down a Varghulf with missle fire (add Quarrelers in and it’s a sure thing in one turn), it’s just gone.
The Fell Bats shine for two reasons. First off, whereas I can march block a Varghulf with a Gyrocopter and limit it to a 7″ (I think) move that turn, I cannot march block Fell Bats to prevent them from moving the full 20″. Secondly… they suck. While Missy rolled badly last time and I rolled well, odds are they I’ll leave them alone due to their relative harmlessness. If they make it to a war machine/Quarrelers, that unit will be occupied for a least one (crucial) full turn, preventing shooting. It’s not important that the war machine hunters break/kill crews and missile troops. It’s important that they be prevented from shooting. Fell Bats do that just fine.
As to Vlad — if you’re 12″ away, he does not have to charge you. You have to be less than 8″ away. With an average flee roll of 10.5″, assuming you were 7.5″ away to begin with and Vlad moved 4″ for a failed charge, you end up 13.5″ away. Zombies cannot be raised behind you, no. They could be Vanhel’s’d into you. Let’s assume that doesn’t happen. If you want to continue baiting Vlad, you have to move around those Zombies and back in front of him. A flee then takes you through the Zombies. If you choose not to continue baiting Vlad, he can move normally.
Now… a ~ 80 point unit of Dark Riders just occupied Vlad Von Carstein for a turn, which probably makes it all worthwhile. But I don’t see how it could continue for more than a turn, table edges aside.
The Black Coach sucks. That’s all. The Sword of Unholy Power does nothing unless the Vampire is in combat, as you know. Sure, it -might- get cool abilities in like… the fourth turn. I do not think that anything at all will justify its use of a Rare slot and the points cost. Also, the model is fugly.
The power that lets you raise more Skeletons is largely useless. I would much rather cast Raise Dead and get at least 5 extra US (plus the possible flank charge, etc) than add more Skeletons that never do wounds and are there just for US and to absorb wounds for the Vampire anyway.
I think what you mean about the terror causing units is that they’re extremely useful against mobile/numerous opponents. The crappy leadership doesn’t have much to do with it in my opinion. When one terror causing unit is likely to affect the bulk of my powerbase as soon as it comes into combat, economy wins out. If I had fast cav or a battle line that stretched across the board, having terror tests at both ends of the field could be great. But I don’t. For a list meant to deal with Dwarfs, one terror causer is fine. For an all-purpose list… well, there are choices and compromises to be made if you want a lot of terror causing units. After playing Tomb Kings, I’m not sure about the payoff. It is useful sometimes.
Cairn Wraiths actually do gradually die to static CR from bog-standard Dwarf warriors, and I would not under any circumstances hit them with war machines. I would rather leave the Cairn Wraiths running about untouched, even if they were causing damage, than shoot a Stone Thrower/Bolt Thrower at them and maybe almost possibly kill one, if I’m real damned lucky. There’s more points to be earned shooting anything else, Zombies excluded. I can’t rune up a Flame Cannon/Organ Gun, which would be the only war machines I have that would actually do well against Cairn Wraiths.
Yes, there is more than one way to skin a cat. I’d imagine Missy will eventually try most of these things in time, but they’re not min/maxed. It’s hard to move away from min/maxed until you’re winning most of the time and can afford to play a themed army whilst remaining competitive. Like me.
Clearly, I’d be within charge range. So, 8″ or less, and probably 7″. Average flee is 10.5″ (well, 10″ and 11″ are equally probable). I’ll call it 10″. You fail your charge, and end up 13″ away. Yes, you can Vanhel’s Vlad’s unit, move up, summon zombies behind me, and Vanhel’s them, which may or may not succeed. Alternatively, I could sit less than 4″ away. 2″, for instance. I flee 10″, and you pursue 4″, leaving your only recourse upon casting Vanhel’s, leaving you 8″ away again on Vlad to be another failed charge (assuming he’d have to declare during Vanhel’s if I were in range, which I’m not sure on, but I’d think you’d have to if you’re allowed to declare a charge [which you are]), putting me safely out of range of crossfire-type unit raising. Getting back into Vlad’s charge arc the next turn (but in a place where I wouldn’t flee into another unit) would be more difficult, but baiting and surviving isn’t much of a task, and I certainly don’t need to move inbetween Vlad and the zombies (getting forcing him to wheel because I’m in his charge arc works just fine). Still, yes, moot point given that you don’t take them, but baiting with fast cav is eminently possible. As Dan noted, even if it’s one turn, it’s worth it.
I, frankly, don’t think the Dakkaites know what the fuck they’re talking about in this instance. One Cairn Wraith compares, points-wise, to three Executioners or so (or similar units in other armies). Fifty points for ethereal skirmishing terror causing undead with 3A and great weapons seems fair to me. Dwarf warriors win with static CR? Uhh… kinda. Let’s assume they have a 3+ save, and it’s Dan’s usual unit of 20 against three cairn wraiths (min size).
Cairn Wraiths have nine attacks. 4.5 hit. Three wound. Two make it through saves. You’ve got two ranks (after the wounds) + standard + outnumber, so they take two wounds (assuming you pass your terror test [likely] and don’t run). Next round, yes, they have six attacks, three hit, two wound, 1.333 make it through, they take three wounds. Still got a 3rd round on them, with .666 wounds after saves. Three rounds tied up, four wounds. It’s not the best ratio, but they’d likely have broken quarrelers, and would actually be useful with support (or against MSU armies/lower toughness/etc).
Spectral Hosts have, say, four attacks (hell, let’s double up and give them eight for two units, since you can’t quite get three for the cost of three Cairn Wraiths). Four attacks hit, 1.33 wound, .444 wounds, and they don’t skirmish or cause terror. They lose by five, and they do .222 wounds next round (given that one of them got wiped out by CR). When the spirit hosts are gone after two rounds, they won’t even have done a single wound (by the numbers)
Cairn Wraith v. Spectral Host, which one looks better to you? As for not being worth their points?
Blood knights (three, even though it costs 15 pts more):
Nine attacks. Six hit. Five wounds. The nightmares get 1.5 hits, .75 wounds, .375 after saves. They beat the warriors by 1.375. Second round, they hit with six attacks, four wound, 2.666 after saves (plus the .375). Dwarves strike back with two, one hit, .33 wounds, .055 wounds. Drawn combat (rank+standard+outnumber). Musician breaks the tie. One blood knight dies, and they lose their frenzy. Round after that, they have four attacks. 2.66 hit, 1.777 wounds, 1.185 after saves (plus .25 wounds from the mounts). Four dwarves strike back, two hits, .66 wounds, .11 after saves. They still have rank+standard+outnumber, another blood knight dies. They live four rounds.
Ghouls? Nineteen (two points more than the wraiths, but meh). Twelve attacks, six hit (with two poison), two wounds plus the two poisoned, 1.333 after saves. Dwarves strike back with four attacks, 2.666 hit, .888 wounds (no save). Next round, when they outnumber, the ghouls probably win combat and autobreak them.
Skeleton warriors wouldn’t fare nearly as well. On the charge (say, sixteen with command):
Six attacks. Three hit. One wounds. .33 after saves. Dwarves strike back with five attacks, 3.333 hits, 1.666 wounds, .555 after saves. Dwarves outnumber and have an extra rank. No matter how long the combat goes on, the skeletons are going to lose models every turn. Not as bad as spectral hosts, but they don’t even get to strike before dwarves after the charge.
As far as it goes, comparatively, I’d say they’re certainly worth their points (to say nothing of their ability to tie up, say, a war hydra indefinitely, eventually killing it). They would not, of course, be running around breaking blocks of dwarf warriors by themselves, but they’d break large core blocks of almost any other army, and with support they’d be certainly be as valuable as skeleton warriors (15 warriors with command is 10 pts less), if not quite as good as ghouls in straight-out charges, but ghouls don’t cause terror, can’t move through terrain without penalty, and can actually be damaged by great weapons (whereas Cairn Wraiths would be just as effective when it comes to tying up Ironbreakers/Hammerers/Longbeards/etc as long as they don’t touch a magic weapon, and even then they could just direct attacks n the first round).
Mathhammer isn’t as much fun, but I just don’t agree with the Dakkaites about the WS3 being a big deal when they’re already ethereal, skirmishing, cause terror, and have great weapons, and mathhammer doesn’t show them being really uneffective for their points against everything else in your list (sure, blood knights do more wounds and last one turn longer, an equivalent number of ghouls would beat dwarf warriors [but not do as well vs. Ironbreakers and other heavy hitters], grave guard are better, but they beat dire wolves, spectral hosts, skeletons, fell bats, and your other choices point-for-point).
What they offer you that nothing else in your army does? The ability to tie up pretty much any unit in his army for three turns, no questions asked (since he’ll just whiff without runic weapons).
As for the Varghulf, I guess it depends on what you mean by average rolling. It’s not a large target, so you’re hitting on a 4+ with a bolt thrower, and wounding on a 2+ (assuming you have the rune of penetrating), so you have a 41% of hitting and wounding, and it’s got a 50% chance of regenerating one of those wounds. You have a 11% chance of doing two wounds on two dice, 22% chance of doing three, 33% chance of doing four, 22% chance of five, 11% chance of six. Essentially, a 66% chance of 4+ wounds in two hits.
Chances of hitting and wounding with both: 16.8%
Chance of doing six wounds (.168 * .11 * .5): .9%
Five wounds: (.168 * .22 * .5): 1.8% plus the .9% to account for six plus the save = 2.7%
Four wounds: (.168 * .33 * .5): 2.7% plus the 1.8% = 4.5%
Three wounds: 1.8% plus 2.7% = 4.5%
Two wounds: .9% plus 1.8% = 2.7%
For one:
Three wounds = (.41 * .33 * .5) = 6.7%
Two wounds = (.41 * .33 * .5)*2 [to account for the three plus save] = 13.4%
One wound = 13.4%
10 quarrelers do .833 wounds after the regen.
The reality is this: Your chances of downing it in one turn amount to 8.1% with two bolt throwers, and it’s pretty much the same odds for one bolt thrower in two rounds and no quarrelers. Not the greatest of odds. Two units of quarrelers (since one doesn’t do enough wounds to make a difference), 12.6%.
To do it in two turns with everything you’ve got shooting it, assuming she doesn’t heal it and the quarrelers hit it again, you need to pull off a single wound from a bolt thrower taking the quarrelers into account (and the odds of a hit+wound are 123%, so it’s a virtual certainty, and I don’t feel like doing the math).
The Coach, on the other hand, you have a 41% chance of destroying with a rune of penetrating (since you still have to wound it per the chariot rules), yes, assuming it’s in your line of sight (which it certainly doesn’t have to be, and I don’t know why the fuck it would be until it gets closer). I wouldn’t take it in a 2250 pt battle, probably, but if it could be kept out of LoS from your war machines, it may end up being worthwhile. The points cost is high, but it’s not like she’s using the Rare slot for anything else.
Sure, another unit with 5+ US and maybe a flank charge beats raising skeletons, but it’s not strictly necessary to have scads of skeletons running about either, particularly if you have more tactical flexibility and are tying up units which can flank charge your vampire+skeleton unit.
Other things are also perfectly capable of screening Blood Knights, though 40pt fast cav units are worthwhile.
Yes, the gyrocopter can march block a Varghulf (its movement is 8″, by the way, so it’d still keep up), and you cannot march block fell bats. At least as far as DE/HE go, hunter units are out there to win combat, rather than just tying up your (organ gun, flame cannon, bolt thrower, whatever) for a single turn where it’s free to hit me again whenever I’m out of combat.
I seriously don’t think the current list is min/maxed, and that using Cairn Wraiths (to be sure), the Varghulf (probably), or, hell, even Black Knights (moving through terrain to flank charge, with KB? No problem) may result in a more effective list. Big blocks of core are not, of course, the most effective list for every army, even if you like core and are dismissive of some of the other choices, they’re better than they look on paper (the sheer ability to tie up units of Cairn Wraiths, for instance, is a good enough reason to take them as far as I’m concerned).
Personally, I find terror to be extremely useful regardless, and I’m not advocating taking units simply because they cause terror. Mathhammer works out in their favor also, and it’s not as if Vampire Counts have a problem raising hordes anyway, which gives them the opportunity to actually use some of their rare/special choices rather than relying on swarming you under with blocks of infantry.